Not a good look for Mastodon - what can be done to automate the removal of CSAM?

  • mindbleach@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 year ago

    4.1 Illustrated and Computer-Generated CSAM

    Stopped reading.

    Child abuse laws “exclude anime” for the same reason animal cruelty laws “exclude lettuce.” Drawings are not children.

    Drawings are not real.

    Half the goddamn point of saying CSAM instead of CP is to make clear that Bart Simpson doesn’t count. Bart Simpson is not real. It is fundamentally impossible to violate Bart Simpson’s rights, because he doesn’t fucking exist. There is nothing to protect him from. He cannot be harmed. He is imaginary.

    This cannot be a controversial statement. Anyone who can’t distinguish fiction from real life has brain problems.

    You can’t rape someone in MS Paint. Songs about murder don’t leave a body. If you write about robbing Fort Knox, the gold is still there. We’re not about to arrest Mads Mikkelsen for eating people. It did not happen. It was not real.

    If you still want to get mad at people for jerking off to the wrong fantasies, that is an entirely different problem from photographs of child rape.

    • Mark@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      Oh no, what you describe is definitely illegal here in Canada. CSAM includes depictions here. Child sex dolls are illegal. And it should be that way because that stuff is disgusting.

      • mindbleach@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        CSAM includes depictions here.

        Literally impossible.

        Child rape cannot include drawings. You can’t sexually assault a fictional character. Not “you musn’t.” You can’t.

        If you think the problem with child rape amounts to ‘ew, gross,’ fuck you. Your moral scale is broken, if there’s not a vast gulf between those two bad things.

    • balls_expert@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Okay, thanks for the clarification

      Everyone except you still very much includes drawn & AI pornographic depictions of children within the basket of problematic content that should get filtered out of federated instances so thank you very much but I’m not sure your point changed anything.

      • mindbleach@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        If you don’t think images of actual child abuse, against actual children, is infinitely worse than some ink on paper, I don’t care about your opinion of anything.

        You can be against both. Don’t ever pretend they’re the same.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          Hey, just because someone has a stupid take on one subject doesn’t mean they have a stupid take on all subjects. Attack the argument, not the person.

          • mindbleach@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            1 year ago

            Some confused arguments reveal confused people. Some terrible arguments reveal terrible people. For example: I don’t give two fucks what Nazis think. Life’s too short to wonder which subjects they’re not facile bastards about.

            If someone’s motivation for making certain JPEGs hyper-illegal is “they’re icky” - they’ve lost benefit of the doubt. Because of their decisions, I no longer grant them that courtesy.

            Demanding pointless censorship earns my dislike.

            Equating art with violence earns my distrust.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              1 year ago

              Perhaps. But pretty much everyone has a stupid take on something.

              There’s obviously a limit there, but most people can be reasoned with. So instead of jumping to a conclusion, attempt a dialogue first until they prove that they can’t be reasoned with. This is especially true on SM where, even if you can’t convince the person you’re talking with, you may just convince the next person to come along.

              • mindbleach@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                0
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Telling someone why they’re a stupid bastard for the sake of other people is not exactly a contradiction. You know what doesn’t do observers any good? “Debating” complete garbage, in a way that lends it respect and legitimacy. Sometimes you just need to call bullshit.

                Some bullshit is so blatant that it’s a black mark against the bullshitter.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  0
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Sure, and I don’t think that’s the case here. If someone is literally arguing that a certain race should be exterminated that’s one thing (report, down vote, block, and move on), but someone arguing that lolicon is just as bad as CP is something completely different entirely.

                  I’m just arguing that it’s generally better to have the conversation than to completely shut them out. I really hate cancel culture, so I will always call out anything that seems similar. I believe in letting people explain themselves, to an extent, and my limit is if they’re actively promoting real harm to actual people (e.g. encouraging violence against some group).

                  • mindbleach@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    0
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Someone arguing child rape is only as bad as drawing Bart Simpson naked is some kind of fucked up.

                    As other subthreads should thoroughly demonstrate - I don’t have to respect someone, to call them out. A position you recently endorsed. The end of polite and civil discussion between equals doesn’t mean the yelling has stopped.

          • balls_expert@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            He invented the stupid take he’s fighting against. Nobody equated “ink on paper” with “actual rape against children”.

            The bar to cross to be filtered out of the federation isn’t rape. Lolicon is already above the threshold, it’s embarrassing that he doesn’t realize that.

            • mindbleach@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              0
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              We’re not just talking about ‘ew gross icky’ exclusion from a social network. We’re talking about images whose possession is a felony. Images that are unambiguously the product of child rape.

              This paper treats them the same. You’re defending that false equivalence. You need to stop.

              • balls_expert@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                0
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Who places the bar for “exclusion from a social network” at felonies? Any kind child porn has no place on the fediverse, simulated or otherwise. That doesn’t mean they’re equal offenses, you’re just not responsible for carrying out anything other than cleaning out your porch.

                • mindbleach@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  0
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  We’re not JUST talking about exclusion from a social network.

                  Do you speak English?

                  The subject matter is the part that’s a felony - so the glib inclusion of the part you just don’t like is dangerous misinformation.

                  I am calling out how this study falsely equates child rape and gross drawings, and your neverending hot take is ‘well I don’t care for either.’ There’s not enough ‘who asked’ in the world. One of these things is tacitly legal and has sites listed on Google. One of these things means you die in prison, anywhere in the world.

                  And here you are, still calling both of them “child porn.” In the same post insisting you’re not equating them. Thanks for keeping this simple, I guess.

                  • balls_expert@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    0
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    They’re studying the prevalence of CSAM under the definition of the country they’re in. It’d be arbitrary to separate the two and make two different conclusions.

                    Also you seriously need to take a chill pill

              • mindbleach@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                0
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                ‘Everyone but you agrees with me!’ Bullshit.

                ‘Nobody wants this stuff that whole servers exist for.’ Self-defeating bullshit.

                ‘You just don’t understand.’ Not an argument.

                • balls_expert@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  0
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Okay, the former then.

                  Let’s just think about it, how do you think it would turn out if you went outside and asked anyone about pornographic drawings of children? How long until you find someone who thinks like you outside your internet bubble?

                  “Nobody wants this stuff that whole servers…”

                  There are also servers dedicated to real child porn with real children too. Do you think that argument has any value with that tidbit of information tacked onto it?

                  • mindbleach@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    0
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Ask a stranger about anything pornographic and see how it goes.

                    This is rapidly going from pointless to stupid. Suffice it to say: stop pretending drawings are ever as bad as actual child abuse.