• Muetzenman@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    You can generate money with a car or a farm. The whole problem with capitalism is getting money without working because you let people work with your stuff. So owning a car and use ist as a taxi is fine with communism. Having a taxi company is not. But you can form a taxi company with others. The difference is no one has financial power over others. No one just profits because he/she is the owner. There are people in charge but they are in charge because they have the knowledge and ability not just because they own everything and can do what they want.

    • huge_clock@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Listen, I’m a worker who saved money through my labour. Why should I not get to use my saved labour by deploying it into an investment?

      • agnomeunknown@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        People accuse leftists of idealist thinking but in what fantasy world are you thinking your personal savings from selling your labor is ever going to come close to what would be considered “capital” in the sense being discussed here?

        • huge_clock@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          It’s directly deployed in stocks and real estate, what do you mean?

          Most capital is “collectively owned” through public corporations, pension funds, etc.

          • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Not most, in the US around 400 individuals own over 50% of wealth. Similar situation in Russia.

            • huge_clock@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You’re right that wealth is concentrated, but I was saying that the assets are collectively owned. For example I am a shareholder of Amazon, a publicly-traded company that Jeff Bezos owns a large stake in. So Amazon is “collectively owned” but each share gets one vote instead of one person.

              • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Shares only give you voting power if you have a massive amount of them. In the vast majority of cases shares function as either a place to store wealth to protect it from inflation or as speculative gambling, the majority of use cases is not to signify ownership. I would not classify that as collective ownership, maybe only in theory if you don’t look into it too much but real world application of shares is definitely not collective ownership.

                I’m very much in favour of businesses being actually collectively owned through a coop business model though.

                • huge_clock@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Owning public stock is legally indistinguishable from directly owning a joint business venture.

                  • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Plenty of things are legally indistinguishable but real world applications are often quite different.

                    Though I would also challage that claim since owning a joint business gives you legal deciding power while owning 1 stock does not, you get zero votes from that.

                  • zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                    1 year ago

                    Gee, who decided what is legally equivalent? Certainly not the people with wealth to buy politicians and judges.

      • willeypete23@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        Where do you think the value for your return on investment comes from? It’s extracted from the labor of workers.

        • huge_clock@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          It’s not extracted it’s combined with labour to produce higher output than labour or capital on their own.

          For example a worker with a shovel could only dig a small hole a day, but with the injection of capital (ie a backhoe) they can dig many more holes. The worker can increase their pay compared to what they would’ve made with just a shovel and the person that provided the backhoe can also generate a healthy return for their capital contribution.

          • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            healthy return

            How is it healthy that some rich investor gets to play golf all day because he can afford to buy backhoes and hire people to use them? How is it healthy that he earns more money if he pays them less, or that he alone is in charge of resources that a whole community worked to produce? What is healthy about any of this?

            What you are describing is the entire fucking premise of socialism: workers cannot afford the means of production, so production ends up controlled by a handful of wealthy capitalists with perverse incentives and no loyalty to the rest of the human race. An entire tradition of thought is dedicated to how unhealthy that is.

          • willeypete23@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            Again, capital is extracted from labor. Who do you think built the back hoe? It didn’t fall off the back hoe tree. Workers built it, workers designed it. If some capitalist pig didn’t own it, then the laborers could just use it.

      • orcrist@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Why should you get money for doing nothing? I think that is a good question. If your investments are earning money, for example because you invested in real estate, then you’ve driven up the price of rent for the rest of us.

        But anyway, in reality almost all of the money in the stock market is held by people who are not like you, people who didn’t save their money by working a nine to five for 10 or 20 years.

        Nobody is stopping you from leaving your money sitting in a bank account. Nobody is suggesting you shouldn’t save money.

        • huge_clock@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          You keep saying “doing nothing” but I earned that money and now I am risking it in investments with uncertain returns.

          • orcrist@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            If you want to work to earn some money and then save it and then later spend it, great. But you’re not content with that.

            Let’s look at a simple example. Suppose you take your savings and you buy a rental property and start renting it out. You’re taking a risk that perhaps property prices will go down, or that maybe you’ll run into a string of 10 bad tenants in a row, and you might lose some money. All the while, you’re sitting there doing absolutely nothing, and probably you’re getting paid for it. But what about your tenants? What’s the risk they’re taking? They could pay rent on time for decades and yet never be able to qualify for a loan to buy property of their own, because people like you have bought up what used to be more widely available. A huge percent of the population is working paycheck to paycheck, and if they have a string of bad luck that lasts more than a month or two then they’re going to end up homeless. Of course their life expectancy will be slashed in a second. In other words, my friend, you’re risking some extra money while they’re risking their lives.

            Also, as several of us have pointed out, most investment money is held by the rich so that they can get richer at our expense. Many people would prefer to get rid of that system rather than try and piggyback on it. There are other ways to structure society so that you can retire in comfort.

      • Snipe_AT@lemmy.atay.dev
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        1 year ago

        How dare you make fiscally responsible investments and expect some return in exchange for the risk you’re taking on by letting others use your stuff. How. Dare. You. /s

        • willeypete23@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Risk is an idiot’s justification. Anyone who owns a business knows the whole point of a limited liability corporation is it removes any risk in case of failure.

          If Walmart went tits up today the Walton’s would still be rich. It’s the workers who bear all the risk.